Head Of Remote. The New COO W/Tyler Sellhorn, Head of Remote @ Polygon
The Head of Remote must be a generalist with experience in every area of the business. Not a person who implements tools.
Here's the recap...In this episode, I chatted with my buddy, Tyler Sellhorn, the Head of Remote at Polygon. Some companies are still struggling to realize the future of work is now here. The years of work building culture and operations based in an office has to be tossed in the rubbish bin. Many companies that went remote during the pandemic are still fakin' it till they make it. Making the newly popular role 'Head of Remote' quite intriguing. Tyler and I chatted about what the role is and isn't. Who should hire one and who's just wasting time. And is the Head of Remote really the new COO?
Do companies really get the future of work?
We're 2.5+ years past the greatest earthquake in how we work in the past 150 years. Remote work went from a trendy thing for startups with no real future, to how every knowledge worker expects to work. Yet, in the past month we've seen polar opposites of how companies are approaching the future of work and remote work. On one end, we have companies like Google, Apple, and Goldman Sachs pushing their employees back to the office. At least multiple days a week. Each of these companies has since faced friction to these decisions. Apple employees are quitting in droves, including some Sr executives. Goldman Sachs has had to change their vacation policy from don't dare take any, to unlimited for more senior employees.
On the other end of the spectrum, companies like Twilio and Airbnb have listened to their employees and the world at large. They've seen first hand the positive impact remote work can offer and have decided to go all in. Airbnb going all the way to allow employees the ability to work and live anywhere in the world.
These polar opposites paint a great landscape of the great divide with how companies see how they'll do business in the future. It's a great launching pad for the hottest new job the past 12 months, the 'Head of Remote.' It sounds pretty simple. Someone whose job it is to make remote great again. Unfortunately, it's not that easy and only a handful of people have the experience needed to do so.
Why hire a Head of Remote
Many companies drank the kool-aid of remote work being the future of work. In fairness, they are right. Some of these companies simply limped their way through the pandemic. Replicating the ways of the office or replicating everything Gitlab has written about to being remote. They realize once the pandemic ends there has to be a better way and a right way to do remote work. They also understand they lack the experience themselves to lead the charge. They want to bring in someone who has experienced remote pre-pandemic to help them do it right.
I've interviewed for a few of these roles, spoken with numerous executive teams looking to hire this role, and executive recruiters tasked with filling the role. What's become apparent is there's a clear delineation in companies that need a Head of Remote and those that don't. What I've found to date is most cases, the company ends up hiring a Jr employee who at best had only transactional experience in a remote environment. In many cases someone within a People Ops role. The feeling I got was they wanted someone who could simply bring in the best remote tools. That's it. But to do remote the right way, you need to completely redesign the company culture and how the company operates. Not what's the best async writing tool, water cooler tool (Spontaneousli), or how to organize a yearly IRL.
Who should hire a Head of Remote
Sorry but before I go there, let's look at the 3 types of companies looking for a Head of Remote and in which cases to hire vs not. First, you have those companies who've been remote long before the pandemic. They've been working async for years, do regular IRLs, iterate on remote onboarding, and write the books/blogs/etc on best practices of remote work (Here's looking at you Gitlab, Doist, Buffer, etc). These companies have been hiring the household hames in remote circles. They definitely should hire one because the role is focused on simply making the already great remote experience even better.
The second category are companies that fell in love with remote and are 100% dedicated to completely redesigning everything to align with the best practices of the future of work. Going from 4+ hours of sync calls a day to be async by default. Replacing central HQs with quarterly IRLs, and similar. If a company has an executive team fully onboard with embracing the best remote has to offer, they should hire a Head of Remote.
The third group is the fakers till they makers (doesn't make sense but had to rhyme). They've embraced remote work because they understand they don't have a choice. Pandora's box was opened and as I've written here for over a year, employees are never getting forced back to the office. They don't want to be the Blockbuster Video we'll be talking about in 10 years time. So they embrace hiring remotely (many times US only or are slow to expand abroad and in many cases hire in hubs). They talk about 4 day work weeks but don't go async by default which is an absolute requirement for success. Most employee engagement still happens just with the employees coming into the 1 or 2 offices they had pre-pandemic. This group should definitely not hire a Head of Remote.
Is the Head of Remote the new COO?
This is a point I've been making since I first heard of the 'Head of Remote' role. Speaking with Tyler who initially pushed a secondary trajectory of the role but towards the end of the episode was aligned with what I've been saying for so long. As Tyler mentioned, this person needs deep experience working remotely. That can be a lot of people. Next, he said they should also have high level experience across the organization. Including IT, HR, Ops, and more. At this point, you can narrow your list of possible candidates down to a few. I like to narrow it down even further. A Head of Remote has to have built and scaled a remote organization pre-pandemic or at minimal a team. So if you take all this into account, those who fit the bill are either CEOs or the first Ops hire at companies doing this remote game for a long time.
You may be asking why? I'll use a couple of real world examples to clarify the need for someone with remote plus operations, HR, strategy, etc experience.
An experienced VP of People/HR would have come from a multinational organization that had employees all over the world. All over the world in hubs. Meaning, finance people in London, developers in India, and customer support in the Philippines. These employees were paid based on their location. That's not how the future of work works. People will be paid and should be paid based on value or contribution provided to the company. For example, the impact a 10 year full stack developer working on the new AI version of the app makes. Building that great AI machine can be done from Sao Paulo, San Francisco, or St Petersburg. If so, why would a developer making the same impact from each of these locations get paid 3 different wages. They shouldn't. Requirements: Remote, company culture, HR, finance, & legal.
Yes, without sitting in an office behind the company fortress firewall companies can be at greater risk when their team is working from the house, a cafe in Bali, or a city park with free city wifi. An experienced IT security analyst would look to lock down every computer and install monitoring software on everyone's machine. However, the most important item of successful remote work is trust. Thus, the experienced leader would understand the necessity to implement additional security tools but not go so far as to monitor your employees (even if anonymous data is shared). Requirements: IT, security, company culture
There's no substitute for face to face interaction between colleagues. There, I've said it. But what you do, how you do it, how often you do it, and what you do in between is as important. For the old school CEO or Ops person that meant people simply having lunch together in the office or going for beers afterwork. Post pandemic, the CEO is thinking it's important to get the team together once a year at an IRL. What they may do is get the team together just once during the year and likely at a destination close to one of the offices. Either to spend some time in the office or simply minimize the expense. That relationship building experience explosion (if the right type of IRL) is then followed up with....Nothing. The transactional remote person would additionally look to host monthly all-hands Zoom meetings to keep everyone informed, or implement a Slack bot that simply matches two people together once every two weeks and does nothing besides that. The experienced remote leader understands you need to have regular team building events (1:1, 1:team, & 1:company) throughout the entire year to continue building on the relationships created/strengthened during the IRLs. In addition, looking for opportunities to get the team together during the year. Whether reimbursing the cost of a train ticket and lunch for 2 colleagues to work together or perhaps getting teams together. Requirements: Ops, company culture, finance
4 day work-week
Gone are the days where remote is a benefit offered to attract talent. Instead it's something people will quit if not given the flexibility to choose themselves. The hottest benefit the past year has been the 4-day work week. Companies and countries are looking to implement this to give time back to the employees. Quality of life has been the biggest factor in the revolution or renaissance that is the future of work. The transactional People ops person or CEO would simply send a memo announcing the future change. And at the strike of midnight that day, pull the band-aid. We're now working 4 days. That experienced strategic person would understand there are a lot of pieces that need to be in place beforehand. Perhaps none more important than async by default. Because if employees are spending 4 hours a day 2+ days a week in sync meeting that leaves little time to get work done in 4 days. Forcing those employees to have to work the 5th day to simply get tasks done. So it's how to implement async the right way, implement the right async tools/procedures. It also requires understanding from both employees and leaders on how to share, consume, and act on the information shared asynchronously. Requirements: leadership, Ops, project management, HR
Scott - [01:20 - 01:23]
Hey, Tyler, how are you today?
Tyler - [01:23 - 01:24]
Thank you so much for joining. How's it going, Scott?
Tyler - [01:24 - 01:36]
It is awesome to be speaking to you. You know, we've been kind of following each other around the internet and it's really exciting to be together here today, recording this podcast. Thank you for the opportunity to share and to be learning out loud together.
Scott - [01:36 - 02:09]
Yeah, I, I love the opportunity. I know you like myself have been doing this for quite a while now. Certainly pre pandemic. I always look for the opportunity when bringing on guests to find someone that I can have a debate with. It tends to be that every one of us who's been doing this pre pandemic, we're all pretty much in the same line. so it's been very difficult to find someone to kind of know, bring up points and even when trying to play devil's advocate, that tends to not work very well. But again, we'll, we'll give it the college, try and see if there's some, maybe diversion somewhere, which, which probably isn't
Scott - [02:09 - 02:11]
And, you know, just to get right into it.
Tyler - [02:11 - 03:03]
Scott, you, you were posting on the internet earlier this week about thinking of the head of remote as a COO. I didn't know how you wanted to kick it off, but I was, I was, I was thinking and ruminating on that a good while this week and, and really wanting to, I don't know, I guess I'd like to push back on that idea that that heads of remote should really just be the, the COO. Right. and I think that the, your intent of what you're stating there is probably, directionally, correct. But to me, I think one of the things that we're finding out, as, as we are heading off into, the, the open water, as it were with, with actual, you know, like work from anywhere, you know, stuff that's not work from home, right.
Tyler - [03:03 - 04:04]
it's, it's, it's the both end of from an home office or, or from elsewhere. there's, there's this idea that, that we, we we've done, we've done it already. We've done it in the pandemic. So now we'll just, just move all the stuff up into the C-suite and, and we're good to go. Right. And I want to say that I believe very strongly that there's a reason why get lab hired Darren Murph in 2019. Right. And it wasn't, and it wasn't because they didn't know how to, operate remotely, right. It was because the ideas that were embedded inside of the GitLab handbook needed an owner, they needed a directly responsible individual. And, and for that person to be responsible to advocate for the experience of remote workers internally to the company and externally, and that's a different, that's a different persona than, than a COO.
Tyler - [04:04 - 04:46]
That's not to say that like, heads of remote might not someday be the COO of the future, but I don't know that, that somebody who is great at, being an advocate for the experience of employees, isn't necessarily going to be the, the best suited for a COO role who is managing the operational and, and, you know, business, kind of like components as well as like, how do we attract good people to our company? And how do we ensure that their experiences is legitimate? So I want to just throw that into, into the hopper right away and be like, Hey, Scott, tell me more about your COO thesis because I'm not sure. I agree.
Scott - [04:46 - 05:31]
Yeah. That's all right. So it's good to, we finally, again, maybe finally, in this episode, find someone where I think at the end, again, we're going to become aligned, but the case that you brought up with lab, I think there's a very clear difference between companies that have been remote since day one, get lab do with, you know, with Darren or chase or companies like this, no buffer. So on and so forth. They career created. They started day. One is remote organization. They hired remotely, they collaborate, remotely. They engaged remotely. Their whole business was built around how to do all of these pieces remotely and attention. And with very much of intention, the companies that are now trying to go remote, didn't start that way. They went that way during the pandemic, because obviously we have no choice. Now, the government said you're closed.
Scott - [05:31 - 06:21]
No officers are closing to work from home. And the companies who have embraced that, this is the future and are now looking for these roles. What I've seen, I've spoken to a number of companies, a number of executive recruiters who were trying to hire for these people. I've had conversations, I've applied for some of these roles myself. And what I found like towards the long conversations and getting towards like the last round with multiple of these companies and speaking to the executive team is at the end of the day, they're really looking for someone to find the tools like what tools should we use for documentation? What tools would she was engagements we using slack, or we should be using twists. You busy this or that. It's kind of a transactional employee. I don't know if it's also a, on one side of it. They just don't understand again, what you really need in the big picture.
Scott - [06:21 - 07:14]
Or there's maybe that assumption where kind of my point to the CEO comes along, where how many people exist that have built and scaled a remote organization, pre pandemic who have that experience kind of across the gamut. I mean, you probably count that two hands, maybe four hands of how many people have actually done this as like a CEO, as an operations manager for like a remote hire. So there's very, very limited amount of people who've done that. So maybe there's expectation of like, this is unicorn. I'm never going to find that unicorn. And if I do find unicorn and how am I going to pry them away from where the ad. But a lot of, again, these people that they're ended up hiring are tend to be people with three to five years of total work experience. again, very not strategic. Don't have the strategic background and the point where I think it's a COO versus again, when you're, when you're get lab, when you're doing, you've been doing this since day one for 5, 8, 10 years.
Scott - [07:14 - 07:54]
So when you bring in a Dara and you bring in a chase, you bring someone like that. You're not trying to redesign how everything goes. You're trying to make things better and improve the experience. The great experience that you already have, like you're doing get togethers, right? Maybe you you've been doing an IRL once a year, twice a year, but you're thinking, go ahead. There has to be some opportunities to get people together in a more frequent basis. It obviously a less, less significant cost and getting the entire company globally together. And some you bring in someone like a head of remote, not saying, okay, well maybe we'll pay for employees who are living kind of close to each other to go work together and hang out and eat lunch together for the day, or we'll do all different types of things that they're taking a great experience.
Scott - [07:54 - 08:40]
And they're just fine tuning it and making it even better where these other organizations it's, you really need to redesign how you're operating, how you're collaborating, how you do everything. so when you're, I think you thinking about the COO role, it's like, what tools do we use again? We'll bring the tools. No. Do you use slack use zoom or do you use some of these more focused type tools that are built for specific use cases? How do you use these tools? I'm thinking about, let's say on the people side or HR side, and how do you hire, do you hire us only? Would you hire people globally? If you're hiring people globally or even us, do you pay people with a global compensation or you pay somebody in one location significantly less than you pay in another location? How do you build culture? How do you big learn?
Scott - [08:40 - 09:29]
How do you onboard new hires? Because the fact that people aren't there in their office, where the manager kind of sits next to them to kind of train them, how do you do these things? How do you engage? How do you do mentoring? There was an article in the guardian in the UK about a year ago. I think there's probably from a gen Z person complaining about how they've lost their opportunity to be mentored by the senior people, because they tend to be the ones who are working remotely, who are out in the suburbs and they're frustrated. And it's been a consistent message across all different areas like this because companies haven't realized this is the future of work, right? Remote is the future of work things aren't going to happen by themselves. We need to recreate with intention again, across all the facilities. I've had some 40 something that probably most of the episodes that, that you've done, the word intentionality comes up more than anything else.
Scott - [09:30 - 10:40]
Is a theme. So if you don't understand that you need to create these opportunities intentionally and how to do them and like mentoring, okay. Maybe you do peer coding, have, maybe do like one-on-one mentoring sessions, maybe do lunch and learns. It's not okay. It's just going to happen organically in a remote environment when people are on two sides of assuming screen, versus I need to think, how do I create again? How do I intentionally create these opportunities for mentoring to happen when people on the other side of the screen? So I think that's really where the COO we'll call it. The new CEO comes into place, where they have to the big picture they had to have had the experience in HR doing HR and culture things in hiring. They need to know the operations and what tools and have the tools. I think they need this kind of breadth of experience. Again, really probably is either a CEO of a remote company, pre pandemic, whereas the operations manager into the first operations person, maybe it's kind of like a VP people, maybe in people, officers, but someone again, who has had that experience across the organization, done many different things. I think that's really where a successful head of remote comes into play. I think we'll dig into why I believe most people are not doing this, but at least I wanted to give an answer.
Tyler - [10:40 - 11:39]
Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate that extra context here, because one of the things that I'm hearing you say, maybe I'll, I'll start by asking a rhetorical question, and, and then kind of expound because when you built a headquarters, you got past your flexible working space, right. And now it's time. Okay. We're, we're at our, we raised our series B and now we're going to build an office. That's our headquarters. Right? Who did you go see? Well, you went and talked to an architect and you talk to a workplace designer and you talk to the person that, that, you know, did the provisioning for the offices, you know, the, the equipment and all of that. Okay. Well guess what, you're not going to do that inside of a physical space anymore. What you're going to do is you're going to hire someone who is directly responsible for building that digital first workplace we're going to build.
Tyler - [11:39 - 12:26]
And then now if we're going to be in a digital space that has knock on effects to like you described, like which tools we're going to use, right. We're going to use these tools, not those tools because we are operating from remote first best practices, right. Because we've hired this person that understands the, the knock on effects of when you start by assuming that no one is going to be co located. Right. What does that mean? What does it mean? Well, it means that there's going to be things that we do this way and not that way. Right. We're going to assume that we need to have, you know, you're never going to have a physical piece of paper for the documents that you're using. So that means there's going to choose, you know, different tools that do not have page breaks as it relates to documents.
Tyler - [12:26 - 13:20]
Right. I mean, I I've had fights with, with team members that that may be, you know, had, had always used, a page breaks on their documents. And I was like, no, no, no, no, seriously. We need to have our default view on our Google workspace, not have each breaks. These are things that are like, seem silly. Right. But if you start from an assumption that people are going to be interacting and collaborating together in, the cloud as it were, right. Why is it that, you know, Benioff was right? What, what, why, why was he right? Well, let's because he started from the assumption that the sales teams were not going to be operating in the same office. Guess what? That has spread across the entire software industry. Not only, you know, P Marco was, was right. Software is eating the world.
Tyler - [13:20 - 14:09]
And you know what cloud software is eating on premise software, right? And, you know, niche software is eating cloud software, right? Every team is going to have its own idiosyncratic way of going about their business. Right. Is your team going to spread many time zones? There are different workflows that are built for that in the same way that an office in Chicago was different than a, than an office in Des Moines, right? Like what are we going to be doing here? You know, relative to the spaces that we're working from, those, those assumptions have been completely blown up and now we're picking up the pieces and who's going to do it. I think it's going to be the head of remote, but the people that have the operational and like, like C-suite strategic things
Tyler - [14:09 - 14:50]
Need that person to be in support of those already. Like, like, strategic things that are happening with the company and, and, and having that person like be the, the, the, no, remember it's, we're working remotely now. We're working remotely. Hey, remember this is different because we're not in an office. Hey, remember, we're not going to be ranking to see each other in person this week, or next week, maybe just this once this quarter, and you know, how are we going to make sure that we're intentional when we do show up with each other, which things we're going to prioritize at that time. Right. And which things are we going to prioritize when we are not working at the same time? Yup.
Scott - [14:50 - 15:38]
Yeah. So God, I want to hit two points finishing off the, the idea of the, the COO. It's also, again, a lot of these conversations that I've had, there's been that question of where this head of remote person sits across the organization. Isn't within the HR kind of a people organization is with an operations team. One of the roles I was spoke about data, they brought on a new head of people. so they weren't sure if both roles would go right into the CEO directly, or the head of remote would go into the VP of people. Most of these couple companies who have a VP of people, again, who transitioned to the remote work during the pandemic have someone who's probably been if an HR executive for 15 to 20 years at a large global company who was used to maybe if they're hiring internationally, hiring and hubs, right?
Scott - [15:38 - 16:21]
You have your London and your India and your whatever hubs, and you also may potentially pay locally in those things. So on one side, if you're trying to think of a company, do you want to build a world-class remote organization? Or do you want to scale the organization? And one of the things that I kept on, on the special in this company, Kevin going back and back and back at this company saying, well, what happens when those two people clash? Because there's going to be those times where again, let's say global salary. Well, this is head of people who have comes from the old school method saying, okay, we're going to hire people in Poland or in Eastern Europe. And we're going to pay them a third of what no developer or somebody is going to get in San Francisco and New York and things like that, because that's, that's what I'm used to do.
Scott - [16:21 - 17:03]
That's what I know. That's what I have the experience in. But on the head of remote, again, someone who's been doing this long enough, it says, well, that's not the future or about the future remote. Isn't paying a localized salary. It's not saying, Hey, this guy in Warsaw is, is a third of the value of the person in San Francisco. Like they're giving the same value into the company. They're producing the same thing. So they should get paid the exact same compensation, like, because they're doing the same job and they're both giving the company the same thing. So what happens in that point right now, you want to hire in Poland, do you go with the best world-class remote, remote experience and pay that, that Polish developer, the same amount, or you go with the old school methodology and the people side and say, okay, well, we're going to hire in Poland, but we're going to pay them no fraction of the cost.
Scott - [17:03 - 17:54]
So I think there's a lot of these conflicts, which again, within the organization, why I had always kind of said that you need that person who sits on top of them, because this is the person who is running the organization. This is the person who knows all the pieces and how they kind of intertwine the kind of go back to the second point. Then you made, not only is it important again, if you're thinking about tools to bring on, but it's what the tool does, what the purpose is, why you're doing it, and it's the best way to do that. So it kind of give a couple examples off the top of my head. No one, I built, sorry to shout out my own side project, but I built a side project about six, 12 months ago called spontaneously to kind of recreate those water cooler moments and thinking of the experience, there had been some other tools which are fantastic version of one tools that would pair people together in a remote environment.
Scott - [17:54 - 18:43]
And it would just say, Tyler, Scott. Okay. Wonderful. And okay, that may work. If everyone's working us time, everyone's in the U S where everyone has the same overlap, but again, then requires you and I to have a slack conversation and figure it, should we do at a time? Yes, no. What time calendars Tuesday, boom, zoom links. I'm but then what happens when you get to the real remote global organization? And this is the issue that I had, it envisioned no using a product like this I'm in Israel and half the people I got connected with were in like the west coast in the U S because I'm very much an extrovert. I love meeting people. I recreated this experience at envision, but there was no way in hell I was coming on at a call at eight o'clock just to meet somebody new. So if that's the way this tool is created, it was someone who was coming from the outside, who doesn't understand what you're trying to achieve.
Scott - [18:43 - 19:24]
And this is the right way to achieve and to say, oh, well, this is like the number one tool for doing this. So let's bring on this one, but they don't look at the nuance. Well, it was never designed for remote work and it's not built for remote work. And it does. It's not going to work truly in a remote environment. and there's other cases of maybe talk about like asynchronous communication, right? That's or sorry, I'm going to go back before that to the four day work week, right? Remote now is no longer a carer that you can dangle in front of somebody to, to recruit them. That's a standard. So companies are thinking, what's the next thing that we can do. So one of those things is the four day work week, which is fantastic. It's a great first step. I won't go into it now, but somebody who would look to do that says, okay, let's train, transition to a four day work week.
Scott - [19:24 - 20:29]
They don't understand, Hey, there's other things around that that need to be in place for this thing to be successful. Right? If you're sitting in meetings all day long, one day, two days, three days a week, when the heck are you going to get your work done? So you're never going to have a four day workweek if you're doing synchronous communication, because there's just no time to actually get work done. So you need to shift to an asynchronous by default way of communicating, but it's also, how do you do that? Do you just rip the bandaid off and say, okay, on Monday, that's it, we're all nobody, there's no more meetings and we're all gonna figure it out. Or do you need someone who has the experience? Who knows the right tools and knows how to, okay, let's transition over like four weeks and here's the process. Here's how to do it. Which again, somebody who doesn't have, I believe have that overwhelming kind of experience, doesn't understand what the right way, how to do it kind of strategically. It's just, okay, let's pull the bandaid. And maybe we'll put this in this tool for Acer miscommunication and wonderful. so I think that's kinda my points of like, what have been some of the misses of, of the, these hires and what they're thinking about, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on
Tyler - [20:31 - 20:44]
When I hear you speaking. What I'm hearing you say is that this kind of transformation in this type of workplace requires executive sponsorship, right? It has to be the strategic goal
Tyler - [20:44 - 21:51]
of the company to build a remote first workplace, including things like time independence, including things like, how are we going to pay people, right? Cause you're, you came at it with like, well, they're bringing the same value, so blah, blah, blah. Well, that may not align with the strategic goals of the company. Right? So how you choose to pay people, you know, localized salaries or not. It depends on how the business is operating strategically, right. Do we want to pay the top of the market for every single person that we hire? Well, that may or may not be the case depending on the company or it may in fact be. And so the thing that you have invited us into, and I want to repeat the invitation is to do it on purpose, right? Be declarative, be explicit, say what we are about, declare your values, your mission, declare your vision, and then make decisions that follow on from that.
Tyler - [21:51 - 23:04]
And I think one of the things that we're saying about choosing to hire a head of remote is to say, okay, we are strategically going to decide to build a workplace that is operating from the first principle that we are very rarely going to be working from the same location and, or, or hubs as you described, you know, in a multinational corporation, right. We're going to say, we're going to hire people in Warsaw, right. Or we're going to hire people in Frankfurt. Well, there, there are things that come strategically from making those location-based decisions. And what we're saying is, is that decoupling the company strategy from specific locations has an accelerating like, like much sooner like decisions that used to be made much later in a company's growth, right. Are now happening much earlier. And I think in, in, in truth is probably going to be a much better outcome in the long-term obviously there's, there's some examples here of, of organizations that have chosen very declaratively early on to be a remote first organization.
Tyler - [23:04 - 24:11]
But if we're saying that this is the future of work, more organizations are, are observing and experiencing the productivity and the, the opportunity like, like just choosing not to commute, like this is like the first order effects. Right. Of saying, okay, we're, we're going to give everybody in our company a raise in terms of the amount of time that it takes for them to get to their place of work and the expense of getting there right now, the default is going to be, Hey, why are you making me commute that this work does not require me to be present near you to be done? Like, why, why do I have to do that? And companies that choose to have an office first culture need to have a very strong set of reasons of why they are choosing, you know, hubs in-person work and it better be more than just as you described, what we want to make sure that water cooler talk happens because, you know, Scott is building a, a side project that's answering that need for remote first companies.
Tyler - [24:11 - 24:51]
And it's, it's not, it's not so difficult. Right. We found out that it wasn't quite so difficult as we thought it was, especially for people that are working inside of screens in the first place. What's the point. Right. And you got, you, you got to be so remorse. Remote is a forcing function, not only for remote first organizations that are building the workplaces of the future, but also for those organizations that are emphatically against that. Like, like they're, they're just like, like, you know, in the streets for, you know, literally in the streets, they're commuting to the office, you know, th th that they should never be that kind of style. Like they're going to have to have a reason why they're not choosing that.
Scott - [24:51 - 25:29]
Yeah. So I think that brings to a question of whether, again, with the lack of experience, with the strategy in place, whether companies really should be hiring for a head of remote based on what have we seen just the last week, right? We've seen the two complete polar opposites on one end. We've seen apple, no, the open letter from apple employees, like, what the f@$k is this? Like, I'm not coming back. I don't need to be in the office. Your marketing is telling the world that your apple products allow them to work remotely and be successful remotely. You require your employees to be in an office, know how
Tyler - [25:29 - 25:31]
Required you have to be in Cupertino.
Scott - [25:31 - 26:24]
Yes. How you haven't gotten this in the last two and a half years baffling. And then you see the polar opposite where Airbnb says, Noah, we see this thing works. You live, you work, just go for it. Like wherever you want to be, wherever you want to live, whatever you want to work. If you want to travel and you want to be a digital nomad and for three months, a year ago, change locations, or, or what have you go do it. So I think we're still like no and half years into this situation. And in some cases we're still, I'd like to starting a line where a company is just still, haven't gotten us, whether it's apple, whether it's Google, they're still forcing and trying to get back to the office. And it's, again, that idea where they just haven't understood what we have to invest in redesigning the culture, redesigning operations, upskilling managers, and all of these investments that are come into running a remote organization.
Scott - [26:24 - 27:04]
Because I think there's a clear difference, right? If you look at any of these companies who are launching as remote first, right? I had a number of them on the podcast last year, and also this year, they're all async by default from day one, like you would think here's a company hiring all over the place and day one, when you're just trying to build something and launch something and get that initial traction, you would think, okay, just natural. Everyone's on huddles, kind of like zoom calls, like all day long to be able to collaborate and get something done. But they're like, no, we're, we're going to be all over the world. We're going to hire all of the world. We don't need to talk. So these companies who were starting from day one are coming, Hey, we're going to be remote first and best practices of remote organizations.
Scott - [27:04 - 27:45]
Just like, if you ask any is launching now, I'll give you three options. If you want a company today, would you be fully remote? Would you be office or would you be hybrid? I can almost 100% guarantee that zero of those companies would say, I would be hybrid. Now you're going to get probably most of the remote. You'll get some of the office. Okay. But you would get none that would say, Hey, you know what? Yeah, it would be great to have a central headquarters here. We have some percentage of people who are coming in and you have some people over there and like, nobody would do that. Like who would it be that moronic to kind of come from that position? Say, yeah, we wouldn't have all people all over the place and not be able to figure out how to engage and onboard and all this potential issues with career trajectory.
Scott - [27:45 - 28:26]
We want to do this from the start, but some of these companies are coming back to this. So again, just thinking from that perspective of when they're now saying, okay, now we should bring in someone to kind of do this. Right. They're still kind of, not yet at that point, where, what, what do we really think is the right? And are we really committing to this? and are we ready to go all in? Yeah. We're going to go all in on a no schedules and let's say four day work weeks or not. We're going to go on async we're going to go on IRL is three times a year. We can, we're going to, we're going to do it all or okay. You know, maybe we're still gonna have some kind of synchronous calls and maybe we'll try to do some async and maybe we'll do flexible Fridays or something like that.
Scott - [28:26 - 29:15]
Then kind of, what's the point of this person that's coming in there? again, they're just coming in. Okay. Let's use this remote tool for this perspective. Let's use that tool for that thing. Again, just as tools to kind of cover it a little bits and pieces versus having that strategic picture of, well, if you want to go remote, like you need to go fall in, it's not the end up putting a toe in the water. Like you got a dump, you got to jump in head first into the deep end, and it's going to require no four day work weeks and getting rid of schedules and asynchronous and getting the team together, get IRLs and paying this and doing this. And I think companies just aren't there yet, or they don't even, maybe don't even know that they need to get there. so I think that's a lot of my, my battle with, with these roles that if you were remote, as I said at the beginning, if you're a remote company from pre pandemic, hell yes, you should have a head of remote because you've been doing this long enough.
Scott - [29:15 - 29:56]
This person is only going to make the experience better. If you shifted into the pen during the pandemic, if you're again jumping head in, then yes, you should probably have a head of remote. And again, for me, a we'll call it the new COO. If you're not a hundred percent sure, like what we should be doing, going full in, you should not be hiring this person. Whether it's like the transactional person to tell you what tools or a more, more senior person, because you're just not there. And this person's not going to be able to provide the value for themselves. Like, like if I came in like, again, liking you, like, could you see what the future of work is like, this is the ultimate life depends on like, what's the best way that you can run an organization. So you have the experience expectation.
Scott - [29:56 - 30:31]
If you came into a company to be their head of remote, right. We're going to get rid of schedules. We're going to go based on output. And we're going to go on doing this and this and this and this. And if you weren't given that ability to do all those things and make like the best type of organization, you're going to get burnt out because they're like, oh, okay. Like if we're still hiring all over the place, but we're still doing synchronous meetings and maybe doing a little bit of async so that the person know in Poland doesn't have to stay in like a later call or like, how happy are you going to be with building like a half ass, no remote organization or remote culture?
Tyler - [30:31 - 31:33]
Well, I think we were circling around a similar topic of, you know, the theme there is that are, are you serious? Right? Yeah. Are you serious? And I think that's one of those things where it was very clear early on in the pandemic, you know, that, the Goldman Sachs CEO, you know, he's you know, very stridently saying remote workers, an aberration. And, you know, and you mentioned it earlier of like, Goldman has, has a really strong culture of mentorship. And, and in-person like, like shoulder to shoulder work that, that happens in office. Right. And so w if you don't have the executive sponsorship to make this change, you shouldn't choose to go remote and that's, and that's what we were talking about earlier. And so I think that the thing to me is like, okay, as, as I'm talking to people and saying, Hey, I would love to be your head of remote.
Tyler - [31:33 - 32:22]
I want to wear that title. Right. I've, you know, I've got my little website, headofremote.xyz, trying to say, here are the best people follow these people, talk to these consultants, right? Like these are the companies that are trying to build for the future of work. Yeah. I think it's one of those things to say, okay. I would be very direct in, in a, you know, recruitment process to say, this is what's possible, right? Yup. Is this what you want? Right here is my 30, 60, 90, you know, six months, 12 months, 18 months plan of like how I would implement, a digital first remote first transformation or, or, or maintenance. If, if we're already kind of starting there, you know, we're gonna, we're gonna sit down with the executive team and interrogate where they are spending their time and what they're spending their time on.
Tyler - [32:22 - 33:23]
Right. Because once you move a remote, right. Because oftentimes when we say, okay, why is it these people want to say we're going to be hybrid? Well, like, cause they've got like, like billions of dollars invested in real estate. And I got to imagine that Goldman is exposed to some, some commercial real estate investment. Right. There's going to be, we have to think about why people are saying the things that they're saying and not just assume that that they are, but they are, they aren't motivated by things other than what might be the best way to work together. Right. And so there's a reason why, you know, legacy companies get disrupted, right. Is because there are better ways to do things. And if they aren't willing to embrace them themselves, right. Airbnb recognized, right. Brian Chesky in, in the, in the reverse, right. you know, said, Hey, you know, w we're about like, we've been enabling this type of accommodation.
Tyler - [33:23 - 33:55]
Right. and you know, what, we probably would be, become a better company if we, if we like, like hired like whole hog, like, like hired the entire, like digital nomad space to just come work at Airbnb, they would become a massively better, you know, company overnight. Right. And, you know, we have, you know, friends, you know, in the remote advocate space that have been living in this way for decades. Right. And, and, and I think it would be really interesting to see them recruit those people, to be like, Hey, help us be better for this market. Because it's,
Tyler - [33:55 - 35:10]
it's, it's big now and it's becoming larger every day. and I think that, that there is an opportunity that, that we're losing, you mentioned apple right there. I know of people that are in the Indi, you know, dev you know, apple iOS, developer community that stopped working at apple. They were employed by apple Inc. Apple computers. Right. And they moved away and, and we're, we're, you know, ex-communicated from the company because they were not willing to stay in Cupertino. Right. That talent no longer exists inside of apple. And now they are working independently for themselves. Yeah. I think it's really important for people to be reflective and to look at the data and to say, what does this mean? If we choose this, what will happen? Right. Cause it's not a secret, it's not a secret who wants to work remotely and who doesn't. Right. It's not a secret of which companies want to, to stay in the office and which ones are open to working remotely. Why is that? Right? It's not hard to, to, to do a little bit of investigation and kind of interrogate the reasons why people are saying things that they're saying,
Tyler - [35:10 - 35:31]
If you just take things at face value, you're, you're going to be missing part of the story, because people are invested in real estate and people are invested in, you know, like cloud infrastructure, like there's, there's a reason why people are saying the things that they're saying and don't miss it. Right? Yeah. There's, there's, there's a Y
Scott - [35:32 - 36:20]
One of the things that baffled me, maybe the most out of the last two and a half years is companies have spent millions and millions of dollars researching and pulse surveys and things, their employees, right. Google is probably most famous for doing more about employee research and happiness and no project Atlas and some other ones more than anybody else to understand what are the employees thinking? And they want things like that. It's been actually crystal clear, wherever you look everywhere, you look that people require flexibility, right? Fully remote. Some are remote, whatever it is they require, Hey, I, the individual am going to choose where I work when I work, why I work, all this, things like that. And the executive team could get all this data and to be crystal clear what the expectation is, what the message is. And they just say, we're just, we're not going to do that either.
Scott - [36:20 - 37:05]
We don't care. We're like tone, or like, what the heck, the what's going on there to say, we understand there's a significant amount of our, our, our people who don't want to come into the office anymore, or be able to choose when they come in and we're going to force them back in that, like, it's such a miss. And I think going to no ties into your, your Goldman Sachs point of, and I've been saying about similar to you that the last two and a half years, this is the, this is in 10 years from now. This will be the blockbuster case, right. Business people will know. What have you learned? Like the last 20 years, it's always a blockbuster case. No, Netflix, they're both doing DVDs. And Reed Hastings decides when they, Hey, you know what? This cloud thing is probably the future. And back into, if you can remember downloading like a three Meg song on whatever it was dial up, took like 45 minutes.
Tyler - [37:05 - 37:08]
I got my DVDs in the mail to Scott. It was great.
Scott - [37:08 - 37:55]
Yeah. So thinking like the future was that direction. And obviously we see what it is now, but the golden Sachs case, right. They love their interns. They're hungry. They come in unit, they're working 18 hours a day and they're super whatever nonsense that is. But those are the same people will then get the same opportunities to build the future of finance through a crypto. And the crypto is now is offering them the opportunity to work from home. And I think the biggest thing that I don't, I try to think about, like in, in little points, especially when I talk to gen Z, people like gen Z, people who've never worked at an office. So they always had that opportunity to flexibility of remote, of digital nomadism, whatever know the terminology want to use. And now you're trying to force them into an environment that they don't have experience.
Scott - [37:55 - 38:35]
You tell them all the office is great for collaboration work and things like that. They've never experienced that. And they've done fine in most cases again, if done right in a remote environment. So I feel it's like, no, this is a great opportunity for, for, I think for crypto in the future of currency. Like this is the moment why, because there's going to be so many people that are coming from JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs is the end. They're going to take the best minds that are building the last, however many hundreds of years of finance. And they're going to be the ones that are kind of jumping these, joining these crypto companies. We're building the future of finance and distributed everything else. This is, again, this is the, the financial blockbuster moment. we already know that that's always been in that direction.
Tyler - [38:35 - 38:40]
The core value of web three is decentralized finance.
Scott - [38:40 - 38:41]
Tyler - [38:41 - 39:39]
And that is aligned with the idea that we ought not be centrally located. Right. And, and I, and I think the, you know, the, the, the crypto companies that are going to succeed are the ones that embrace the, the fundamentals of their core product distributed, decentralized. Right. That is the story of the internet. That is the story of technological change over the last 70 years. Right. What, what has happened? We have, we have obstructed away computation. Right. Okay. Well, just, just keep going. Right. Don't stop. Right. And, and what is the, the end result in 2022 as Scott and Tyler are having a chat, right? It's that we can have a deep, interesting conversation that can be recorded and listened to by anyone at any time.
Tyler - [39:39 - 40:14]
That is going to be the future of finance, of, of workplaces, of, of all kinds of human to human interaction and computer to computer interaction. There's there, there's going to be a decentralization that, that is inherent to, we talked about it earlier saying, okay, well, what, what did Benioff get correct? Well, that, that, that the customer data needed to live away from the office. Right. Well, that's okay. Keep going. Right? Yeah. Don't stop.
Scott - [40:14 - 41:15]
Yeah. Yeah. So maybe jumping in, come to like a couple of little points and, and, and get your, your perspective. So hopefully there's multiple company leaders who are listening to this episode here who are thinking to themselves again, we want to make the remote experience better in whatever capacity it is. And maybe we're thinking, Hey, would be a good idea to hire a head of remote or remote advocate, whatever entitled you want to throw in there. And who would they naturally look at? They would look at people like yourself, like myself, again, people who've been doing this for awhile. So if of you, again, you were in that position now, as you may be now in a kind of interviewing for these roles before you even get into the interview, tell me what you would say in an interview. What's your, what would you do in three months, six months, 12 months? Like, what would be the fundamentals? What would you do first? Like what would it be important and why? So I think it's important again, for anyone listening, who is in that leadership position, which was thinking about this to understand what do we re remote old school? Remote leaders think is the right way to do it is the right way. Is the big picture. let me know your thoughts.
Tyler - [41:15 - 41:42]
Well, I think the thing that we've been talking about is, is this executive team serious about a remote first workplace after that? Like, like there's a whole bunch of other things, right. I do think that, you know, this person needs to be a generalist, you know, with enough experience in it, compliance HR L and D ops and ops broadly,
Tyler - [41:42 - 42:36]
But I'm saying that in supportive of that organization, right. But this is somebody that is, you know, deep on remote, right. And, and thin, or, or, or enough in all those other places so that they can defer to the experts in those spaces. Right. You don't, you don't want to hire in my opinion, right. You don't necessarily want to hire for, if you hire a, someone who's deep on it, right. In a, in a head of remote role, guess what you're going to get. That hammer is going be pounded everywhere. It's an it problem. It's an it problem. It's an it problem. It's everywhere. And, and that's, that's not what you need. In my opinion, what you need is someone who is eight, who is conversant with an it expert to then be able to apply a remote first layer to that, to that experience.
Tyler - [42:36 - 43:23]
Right. Or at least somebody who is able to like, interface with a service provider or a vendor to think about, okay, how does this apply to our workplace? Right. And I think that, you know, having those conversations where it's like, okay, we're going to do some tool evaluation, but I think to me, you've got to start from the fundamentals. Right. You've got to say, okay, when do we use the tools that we have existing already? Right. And when do we add something else? Right. And then what do, which of which tool do we use for which situation? Right. And I think it's really important to remember that there is a, there's a broad spectrum, right. To say, okay, here is text only. And on the other end is, an in-person like offsite, right. And probably somewhere in the middle is that, is that video conference.
Tyler - [43:23 - 44:19]
Right. And, and, you know, really like, like the video conference now is kind of like shifting more towards, the in-person right. These are those synchronous conversations where we either had to physically low co-located or we had to co locate, you know, based upon our, our different time zones to talk at the same time. And then there's this broad space in between, you know, flat text and a video conference that every remote communication tool is trying to, to fill the void. And there's, there's, there's some, there's an early, you know, you know, tools that, that are out there that, that are, they're trying to fulfill this space and they are good enough. Right. But they're going to get better. Right. And I think to me, the number one thing that, ahead of remote is gonna be able to do is going to be able to take a lot of those, those conversations and interactions that happened in a video conference and, and, and move them off of the calendar.
Tyler - [44:19 - 45:19]
Right. And so the calendar and how people are spending their time is the most precious resource and the hardest to get overlap in when we even just say, Hey, we're going to have people in New York and in California. Okay. Well, how are they going to collaborate? Well, so far, we, we, we've gotten on some conference calls and they've kind of been horrible, right? Well, stop doing that, stop doing the horrible thing and do things, do things from first principles to say that we're, it's going to be hard for us to get enough at the same time very often. So we're only going to deploy that when we absolutely need it, right. When are we going to get on a video conference when it makes sense when we, when we need to have faces talking to other faces, right? And that isn't really needed very often, especially if you have had the opportunity to get together in an in-person offsite, this has been the experience of, of, you know, the best remote first, organizations, right.
Tyler - [45:19 - 46:16]
It has been to say, if you can get new people to, to meet their, their boss right away, that will accelerate that person's onboarding very, very quickly because just, you know, let's, let's face it. We have monkey brains and they need to do the primate thing. Right. And, and we have to start from the physics of our psychology. You cannot break the fact that the sun shines on only one part of the world at a time, and you can't affect the, the, the fact of the matter is that we are people and we are humans. And there are things that follow from that, that we need to address directly. You have to start with the people, and then you can build processes on top of that. And you can select, you know, products that will be smart and, and, you know, begin with, you know, good, you know, we're not going to optimize for being able to get on video conferences.
Tyler - [46:16 - 47:04]
We need those, right. But they're not going to be the primary mode. Right. We right now, the experience of people working from home has been to say like 80% of our interactions and collaboration is gonna happen in a video conference. That's the wrong balance. It really should be all the way around. It should be like 20% of the time. If, if that, right, depending on how strong the organization is in terms of building up, you know, synchronous work culture. And I think that's, that's really what we're saying is that, like, how are we going to offer a four day work week or a, a time flexible, arrangements to caretakers and parents and people that want to optimize for their lives away from work. Right? Whether it's whether it's parents or catered caretakers or the really obvious ones, like how do we make, you know, inclusive work cultures that include those types of like, only like myself, right?
Tyler - [47:04 - 47:51]
Yeah. I work in nonlinear, Workday, right. I work 90 minutes before I cook breakfast for my family. Right. And I pick my children up from school every day. Right. That I probably have, you know, like a solid four hours in the middle of my day around lunch that like, like I could have like a lot of like, interactions, like talking together, like at the beginning of that time. Right. Why did this end up here? Well, it's because I have time on my calendar that doesn't have anything to do with my work. Right. And so I think it's really important for us to start from the people start from like the assumption that we aren't going to easily be able to work at the same time, because we are hiring across time zones. And the sun only shines on one part of the world at a time.
Scott - [47:51 - 48:37]
Yeah. It, the, the work-life balance integration or quality of life is so crucially important. Now I love what you said. I have somebody on my team who just came back from maternity leave. And like the first day she came back, I said, listen, I know what I know what it is to, I have a new baby at home. So listen, the team may not be fully async yet or onboard doing these things. But I am. I said what they say for, especially for mothers, right? When the baby sleeps, usually the baby takes nap at like 11. O'clock go take a nap at 11 o'clock. If you need to do this, I'm like, go do this. Don't ask me, don't ask for permission. Like, not that I don't care, but please don't like, don't feel like you need to work within like a box and say, okay, I can do this in my lunch time.
Scott - [48:37 - 49:19]
I could be with my kid during this hour, that hour, I'm like, you need to live your life right. At the end of the day, what do I care about results? So what that means is at the end of the day results, what your day looks like, that encompasses to get those results. That's up to you. Like whatever's most comfortable and most effective for you. Go do that. And that's the way it should be. And I like, I want to hook in one of your points that I really liked about the person not being siloed and kind of sitting across the organization and where again, I very much aligned in this idea, it's the case of the it person, right? If you had a true kind of head of remote person that said, Hey, know what? Cyber security insecurity is a bigger question in a remote environment, because we're not in a corporate network and firewalls and blah, blah, blah, and so on and so forth.
Scott - [49:19 - 50:41]
If we had just an it person, they come down extended with a hammer and you need to do this and that. And probably most likely, Hey, you probably should be doing some type of surveillance of your employee, isn't computers and things that you're doing, where when you have that overarching kind of experience with operations, with culture, with no HR, things like that, you could say the security, the firewall that, this thing, VPN, like that makes perfect sense, but like the surveillance, well, that's, that's not trusting your poison. And like these single foundation all the way at the bottom, that the pinnacle of, of remote work is crossed. So if you start adding surveillancing, cause you feel like it would make the company more secure. Well, you've just thrown away the whole book about being remote organization because you don't trust the employees. So it's someone having that again, experience and the knowledge across different areas that can kind of bring in those nuances where yes, we definitely need to bring in more security tools and protect our, our IP and, and employees and things like that. But there's a fine line, right? When it comes to, you know, one side yes. When it comes to employees and security and surveillance, things like that, like, that's, that's a, no-go where again, it's like to your point, it's so important to have those people with that overarching experience again, who can kind of bring in from the side off from a culture side, but it doesn't make sense from a finance side, like whatever, maybe.
Tyler - [50:41 - 50:47]
Yeah. I, I think it's really important for us to not make assumptions.
Tyler - [50:47 - 51:42]
and, and, you know, even in that example that you gave, right, there are going to be compliance issues like inside of a remote first workforce that maybe is doing a, is working inside of a finance, you know, expression of, of, of, of workplace. You like remote first, finance organizations are going to look different than, than other companies, right. Because of regulatory environment, right? Like, like the sec is going to come, Collin, if you're not behaving in an inappropriate way, and you need to be able to have an answer for, for the feds. Right. That, that, that, that is, that is gonna appear different, than, than other other situations that, you know, like, a B2B SAS company is going to look different. Right? Like that that's, that's, that's going to be different than, you know, you know, a consumer finance organization, right?
Tyler - [51:42 - 52:32]
Like, how are we going to handle, you know, th that type of data, you know, relative to, you know, this is somebody's corporate email. Right. Okay. Well then that's a different, you know, data handling situation. I think it's really important that we are respectful to, you know, those, those compliance officers that, that exist inside of those organizations. And if they're going to attempt to, you know, build a, you know, you know, we were talking about crypto companies, like there's going to be versions of remote that look different just because of the industry they happen to work in. And I think that's the thing that we're, we're, we're finding out is that those idiosyncratic kind of like, like this is specific to this industry or this kind of company or these leaders and these people, I think that's the thing that is possible in a remote first workplace.
Tyler - [52:32 - 53:11]
That was never possible when we said we're all gonna live within 30 miles of this headquarters. Right now we can build it exactly to spec because there isn't the, you know, there's, we're never going to be able to avoid the fact that we are humans. Right. But we are going to be able to like, you know, avoid some amount of the physics constraints by saying we aren't going to all co-located right. So now we can build an even better remote or even better workplace, because we're not dealing with also the strictures that, that come with being in the same location. There's, trade-offs all the way around.
Scott - [53:11 - 53:19]
Yeah. I completely agree. I guess we're running low on time. Any last questions? Thoughts you want to share? Bring up here?
Tyler - [53:19 - 54:06]
Well, I guess maybe the thing that I want to invite everyone to do is the same thing. And we've kind of been talking about as, as a major theme is to say that remote first workplaces do. Cause I mean, just shout out to, to the OJI head of remote Darren Murph Friday, he's been saying it forever. And I'm so grateful that people have caught onto this idea and have been repeating it sure. Is it remote is a forcing function for intentionality. Oh yeah. And, and the fact is, is that you're going to have to do things with more reflection and more purpose than ever before. Right. There were so unspoken assumptions that went into, you know, co-located in an office that have been completely blown up by the pandemic
Tyler - [54:08 - 54:20]
We need to be reflective and we need to think about, okay, how are we going to show up whether that's a remote first or office first company going forward, decide and express that decision clearly.
Scott - [54:20 - 54:29]
Yeah, completely great. So for people listening, how do they find, find you get ahold of you learn more about this head of remote project that you're working on?
Tyler - [54:29 - 54:29]
The clearing house for, for all my stuff is T-cell dot link. I'll share it with Scott, for the recording. but yeah, you can find all my things there. you know, I'm, I'm myself on LinkedIn and on Twitter. So you shouldn't be hard to find me if you want to find me there, but, you can find links to everything, at T-cell that link.
Scott - [54:45 - 55:08]
Awesome. So, Tyler, I appreciate the conversation and as expected, it's the end of the day when we thought we were going to conversion diverged, we ended up in the same place, which again is the way it always works with anyone who's been doing this long enough. Again, we're all on the same plane. So I greatly appreciate the time, greatly appreciated the insights and the feedback, and so happy to have you on and until the next episode, everybody. Thank you.
Tyler - [55:08 - 55:11]
Thanks, Scott. Appreciate you.